Hi Jamie
An interesting thought on fatigue. Noakes and his colleagues released
papers on the role of the brain and nervous system in fatigue control and
management which pointed to a brain control of fatigue onset rather than
muscular depletion model - the brains shuts you down to preserve energy for
vital functions (and running away from sabre tooth tigers) rather than
muscular fatigue (think there were some post on this forum on this topic).
I wonder if increased levels of creatine mediate the onset of normal fatigue
signalling, so that other systems fatigue before central control by the
brain starts the shut down process.
I see my water retention postulate seems to "hold some water" :-)
Best Regards
Nick Tatalias
Johannesburg
South Africa
On 24/02/2008, carruthersjam <Carruthersjam@
>
> --- In Supertraining@
> "John Casler"
> <bioforce.inc@
>
> > John Casler wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jamie,
> >
> > All I know for sure is that it happens and it is very interesting
> (as well
> > as somewhat Painful)
> >
> > It almost always happens 1-24hrs after a very high intensity
> workout. It
> > doesn't require a lot of sweating or fluid loss, since my weight
> training
> > sessions (except for squats) create very little perspiration.
> >
>
> ****
> Hi John, below are comments from Dr Ross Tucker
> (http://scienceofspo
>
> Herewith my thoughts on the issue of creatine and cramping:
>
> When creatine was first released onto athletes everywhere, there was
> a good deal of hype and excitement about the possible performance
> benefits it offered. And not surprisingly, athletes in all sports
> launched into its use without really knowing or considering the side
> effects.
>
> I'll never forget my first "exposure" to creatine, was in discussion
> with the fitness trainer of the Western Province professional rugby
> team. The trainer is a highly qualified scientist (holds a Masters
> degree so has a reasonably sound grasp of making inferences based on
> observation) and he had worked with the same group of professional
> players for three years before the whole team decided that they
> needed to use creatine!
>
> Now back then, as I said, knowledge and understanding was in
> relatively short supply, and I'll never forget the story he tells of
> the first time the players used it. They'd figured that if they
> ingested creatine during half-time they'd see benefits almost
> instantly. So during the half-time break, the players all took their
> mixture. He says that in the second half, 12 out of the 15 players
> on the field came down with cramp!
>
> Now, obviously, they'd been using creatine in the build-up to the
> game, and so the effect was not simply due to taking creatine at half-
> time. But he was absolutely convinced that the creatine had caused
> the cramping. He said they all went off it after that, or reduced
> the dosage and timing of ingestion, and the problem never happened
> again. For 12 out of 15 professional players to cramp would suggest
> something other than co-incidence!
>
> I'm not ideally positioned to say he is either right or wrong. I had
> a look through the scientific articles on the site, one of which says
> that creatine actually REDUCES cramping, the other finding no effect.
>
> My personal thought on that type of study is to interpret with
> caution - in science, one of the most difficult things around is
> establishing what we call "causality". It's very easy to find
> associations, as these studies have done (Creatine use is ASSOCIATED
> with reduced cramping), but to actually say that A causes B is very
> difficult. And in this type of study in particular, there's the
> problem that whenever you do research, your 'presence' as the
> investigator alters the normal relationships and systems you're
> studying! In other words, those studies present very controlled
> settings, where the training, the diet, the use of creatine and the
> between training activities are meticulously controlled. That
> situation does not necessarily hold for your use of creatine and your
> training. Also, in these kinds of studies, the training benefit of
> creatine (that is, the groups taking creatine may develop resistance
> to cramping because they are better trained than the control group.
> This "confounding factor" might mean that the more appropriate
> conclusion from these studies is that "Creatine use and proper
> training will combine to reduce cramping during an entire season of
> competitive sport". Note the difference between that and the
> title "Creatine prevents cramping"!
>
> Point is, the studies might be showing no association, but your
> experience and the experiences of people on the forum seem to
> indicate that the issue is not cut and dried just yet.
>
> Now, I've taken a very long route to actually tackling the problem,
> but it's worth pointing out that the research is not necessarily
> definitive in this area. One thing I have learned in my research so
> far is that the experience of people often counts for more than the
> best designed research studies! And maybe this is the case here!
>
> Now, as for the mechanism, difficult to say why (if at all) creatine
> would cause cramping. One thing I think we can rule out is
> dehydration. There are a couple of ways to argue this, but the
> bottom line is that there is little evidence that dehydration is
> responsible for cramping of any kind. I'd enourage readers to look
> through the series we did on this topic (See previous ST posts).
> point is, you don't cramp because you're dehydrated, or because
> you've lost electrolytes. I can almost guarantee that when you
> experience these cramps, if you measured your body weight (as a means
> to measure hydration) or better still, your electrolyte levels and
> body water, you'd be easily in the normal range.
>
> My personal opinion is the cramps are caused by neurological control
> factors, with fatigue playing a major role. A fatigued muscles is
> more likely to cramp, and perhaps there is some mechanism by which
> creatine enables the athlete to become more fatigued, increasing the
> likelihood of a cramp? Again, in this regard, it's not the creatine
> per se causing cramp, but it's an "accomplice"
>
> I also suspect, and this is not borne out by any evidence from
> research, but is a theoretical argument, that one possible part of
> the cause of cramp is the water retention that creatine causes. You
> are no doubt familiar with this, but the retention of water is a side-
> effect of creatine use. This might be the mechanism for muscle
> cramp, particularly if the motor nerve-muscle are affected.
>
> The other possibility, of course, is that the breakdown products of
> creatine are responsible. However, I'm not sure of this mechanism
> either. I think the fact that these perceptions exist is an
> indication that the problem and its causes is pretty poorly
> understood.
>
> Hope that helps!
> Ross
>
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