ertraining@yahoogro
>
> --- In Supertraining@
>
> **** Overeating and being fat? How do you think they got fat? Why
> do you
> > think they started overeating? They just suddenly decided to start
> > eating excessively and getting fat one day, after thousands of years
> > of behaving differently?
>
> Civilisation evolved from the Neolithic period about 10,000 years
> ago, but the essential difference between the diets of hunter-
> gatherers then and now is food abundance - fat, protein,
> carbohydrates and extreme availability -- it's not just because of
> grains.
>
> **** As you point out, I sort of convoluted two different issues in
> which grains are a major culprit in my posts, and two different forms
> of grain.
> > The issue with whole grains are the many compounds they contain that
> > block nutrient absorption. These issues are still there with a lot
> of contemporary processed "whole grain" products, and sometimes made
> > worse. This is tolerable when the grains are eaten in small amounts,
> > but starts to cause malnutrition disease when grain begins to make
> up around half one's diet.****
>
> Tell that to a billion or so rural Asians who exist on rice several
> times a day. In any case that's an argument for a balanced diet and
> has nothing to do with grains per se. I've shown you that whole
> grains can help prevent diabetes. Here is evidence that whole grains
> help prevent heart disease as well.
>
> Nutr Metab Cardiovasc Dis. 2007 Apr 19
> Whole grain intake and cardiovascular disease: A meta-analysis.
> Mellen PB, Walsh TF, Herrington DM.
>
> "CONCLUSIONS: There is a consistent, inverse association between
> dietary whole grains and incident cardiovascular disease in
> epidemiological cohort studies. In light of this evidence, policy-
> makers, scientists, and clinicians should redouble efforts to
> incorporate clear messages on the beneficial effects of whole grains
> into public health and clinical practice endeavors."
>
> Do you now agree with me that a balanced diet with whole grains is a
> healthy diet?
>
####
First, I don't buy that sheer abundance of food is more important than
dietary composition. I don't think we know much about how abundant
food was 10 to 90,000 years ago. We do know that the US and Europe
have had abundant food for large classes of people for long periods of
time. It is only recently, with the rise of processed foods
containing flours, sugars, and now fake fats, that obesity rates have
skyrocketed.
As for Asians "surviving" on heavy rice diets, I thought we were
talking about optimal health here. Last I read, estimates were about
40% of the surviving world population suffers from malnutritive
micronutrient deficiencies. Zinc deficiency is rampant in Asia,
historic outbreaks of beriberi in SE Asia are known to have been
caused by polished-rice heavy diets. Have you seen all the work being
done by ag scientists to try to reduce antinutrient content of various
grains - even those intended to feed factory-farmed food animals - via
selective breeding and even genetic engineering? The implication is
that it is well-known among ag scientists that high grain diets aren't
even fit for livestock.
As for these two studies, I can't read the details right now, so I
don't know that they illustrate anything. Did these studies put
grain-heavy diets up against alternative whole food diets with
equivalent amounts of fiber and other major nutrients known to have
effects on diabetes and heart risks?
> > The issue with refined grains, particularly white flours, is that
> > eating them triggers hormonal responses that lead to obesity.
>
> Overeating anything -- meat, fat, sugar, grains -- leads to obesity.
> The idea that, magically, a bowl of rice turns people into glutton
> robots is so far fetched that I wonder why so many people believe it.
> In any case, that's not an argument for excluding all grains from
> your diet.
>
> ****Not only do they directly trigger fat storage, but they also
> cause rapid spikes and declines in blood sugar that lean one to be
> way too hungry again way too soon. The same goes, of course, for
> refined sugar. In general, refining carbohydrates into a powder or
> syrup at all appears to be the problem. ****
>
> Of course too much refined sugar and flour can be a problem, but
> don't obscure your original contention that *all* grain foods are so
> bad that they should not be eaten at all.
>
> And, any fat that gets stored from whatever you eat is still
> available for energy use. In an energy-balanced diet, this dynamic
> around fat, carbohydrates and protein gets worked out so that you
> don't put on weight. Any mild fat storage from carbohydrates doesn't
> get stored away never to be got at at again. You might as well say
> that dietary fat triggers fat storage -- it makes about as much sense.
>
> Many types of foods precipitate food intolerances or allergic
> reactions. Nuts, milk (lactose), seafood, eggs, dairy, grains
> (gluten). If they don't agree with you, don't eat them; eat something
> else. In fact allergic anaphylactic reactions to some nuts and
> seafood and eggs can be life threatening.
>
> One doesn't see people running around telling all and sundry not to
> eat nuts or seafood or eggs -- which might kill them. The anti-grains
> movement is nothing more than an irrational cult.
>
Try re-reading. I said grains are not a good food for optimal
health... and clarified that what I meant by that was in large
proportions. I said I think one should eat small amounts, as I think
one should eat a very wide variety of food, based once again on the
principle that there is still much about nutrition we do not know.
See my fungus analogy. If I was making a food pyramid, grains would
be the pointy part on the top, not the huge slab on the bottom.
The point you seem to be missing with your idea that fat stored can
always be taken off is that if you keep eating flour and sugar, you
keep overeating and you keep putting it on. Yes, overeating is the
problem. I am saying that eating a type of food that shoots your
blood sugar up, drops it like a rock, and makes you exceedingly hungry
long before you could ever burn up the calories - directly triggering
fat storage all the while - is the biggest factor. I believe 1 or 2
pounds per year of constant weight gain is average for Americans.
Yes, there are other foods that cause allergic reactions. As for
stats on the relative prevalance, it is actually heavily skewed
towards the types that send you to the hospital upon acute
consumption, for obvious reasons. Grain allergies - celiac disease in
particular - tend to have less-acknowledged chronic symptoms, and are
often undiagnosed.
I am not part of any movement. However, labeling it a cult isn't
particularly damning, considering the prevalent positions of the
current establishment regarding nutrition and optimizing health in
general. Most doctors are still telling people not to eat cholesterol
and that moderate aerobics are the only important type of exercise.
New ideas are always minority opinions.
Kevin Wilbanks
Wisconsin, USA
> Paul Rogers
> Gympie, Australia
>
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