No I am not in school, I graduated some 18 years ago. I think the idea
would be to assess whether there is a link between increased intramuscular
water volume, and cramping relating to sodium deficiency. That was the
hypothesis presented in the two papers. Does the absorption of creatine
into tissue effect sodium, calcium or other minerals in balance how does
this effect water balance. I rarely take creatine as a supplement as it
didn't seem to have the wondrous effect on me that others reported, I
probably eat enough red meat to meet most of my creatine needs, but if it
did give me cramps I would experiement with talking salt tablets (assuming
no pathology of hypertension) to see if this helped me. (Table salt
contains a lot of potassium iodate, so that isn't the best tool to use for
testing). Of course if the effect is localised this may not help. Some
additional thoughts any comments.
Best Regards
Nick Tatalias
Johanesburg
South Africa
On 23/02/2008, Chad Scheitel <chadscheitel@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Nick,
>
> I think you have a pretty good hypothesis going here.
> How old are you? Do you happen to be in school right
> now? This would be a good research project to do. If
> any college students or researchers in this group in
> the field should take note.
>
> In the meantime we can do pre-test model using this
> yahoo group. How about a few people on here who have
> had muscle cramping issues while taking creatine in
> the past volunteer. One group of you can do what most
> people taking creatine do and drink a ton of water
> (and then they think it is the creatine that is making
> them pee so much). You can start by keeping track of
> all dietary intake (expecially creatine and fluid
> intake) and physical activity. If you have cramps
> write down when and how bad. Another group of you can
> opt to be in the other group and try to limit your
> fluid intake while consuming creatine and once again
> log all of your dietary intake, physical activity and
> cramping. Then one group can be the control group and
> not use creatine and record cramps, diet, PA. Feel
> free to report on here what you get.
> Regards,
>
> Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS
> Minneapolis, MN
>
> --- Nick Tatalias <nick.tatalias@gmail.com <nick.tatalias%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Bill
> >
> > In your post you ask the question "Does it makes
> > sense that greater
> > intramuscular water would cause
> > cramps?"
> >
> > I think it may if you look at the post by Jamie
> > Carruthers entitled
> > "Dehydration/Electrolyte
> > Depletion and Cramps" in which he relates a web site
> > that discusses the lack
> > of scientific evidence for the electrolyte depletion
> > model .
> >
> > I have tried to extract the relevant bits but it is
> > quite long still so I
> > have highlighted the most outstanding sentences in
> > caps – not to shout but
> > to make noticable. Following this I have quoted
> > from your excerpts from you
> > creatine study.
> >
> > ************
> >
> > The electrolyte depletion model of muscle cramps
> >
> http://scienceofsport.blogspot.com/search/label/muscle%20cramps
> >
> > …..Professor Martin Schwellnus is hands down the one
> > researcher who has
> > consistently moved this area forward. As a sports
> > physician he has
> > treated many a runner with cramps, and his curiosity
> > and what he was
> > seeing in the medical tents lead him to challenge
> > this paradigm that
> > dehydration and electrolyte problems cause cramps.
> > What he found was
> > that this model was based on not one shred of
> > scientific data, and
> > instead relied heavily on anecdotal evidence. Since
> > 1997 he has
> > published some of the only evidence available that
> > has even attempted
> > to determine what actually is causing the cramps and
> > who is prone to
> > this condition.
> >
> > In a 2004 study published in the British Journal of
> > Sports Medicine,
> > Professor Schwellnus and his colleagues examined
> > runners before and
> > after the Two Oceans 56 km marathon in Cape Town.
> >
> > WHAT IS ALSO NOTEWORTHY FROM THIS STUDY WAS THAT THE
> > CRAMPERS HAD AN
> > AVERAGE LOSS OF BODY WEIGHT OF 2.9%, COMPARED TO
> > 3.6% FOR THE NON-
> > CRAMPING CONTROLS. IN OTHERWORDS, THE PEOPLE WHO DID
> > NOT CRAMP LOST
> > MORE WEIGHT THAN THE PEOPLE WHO DID. It goes further
> > than this,
> > because Schwellnus et al were able to measure the
> > change in plasma
> > volume as well - a more direct measure for what is
> > happening to
> > fluids. HERE, THEY FOUND THAT THE CRAMPERS ACTUALLY
> > GAINED A SMALL
> > AMOUNT OF 0.2% DURING THE RACE. THE NON-CRAMPING
> > CONTROL SUBJECTS
> > LOST 0.7%. So the sum effect of this data is that it
> > suggests very
> > strongly that cramping is not associated with
> > dehydration, or with
> > lower serum electrolyte levels, which is what we
> > have had drilled
> > into us for many years!
> >
> > The next year they published a study in Medicine and
> > Science in
> > Sports and Exercise, and instead of runners it was
> > Ironman
> > triathletes…….
> >
> > So the two groups were essentially the same in that
> > the crampers did
> > not spend longer in the course or lose more weight
> > (a crude measure
> > of dehydration). Yet again the crampers and the
> > controls looked
> > remarkably similar on paper---except as in the 2004
> > study the
> > crampers again had a statistically SIGNIFICANT LOWER
> > SODIUM
> > concentration, and, we will repeat this, THAT
> > SUGGESTS THEY WERE MORE
> > HYDRATED COMPARED TO THE CONTROLS. . .YET THEY WERE
> > CRAMPING....
> >
> > **************
> >
> > You then quote this from the study of creatine
> >
> > **************
> > The Effects of Creatine Loading on Thermoregulation
> > and Intermittent
> > Sprint Exercise Performance in a Hot Humid
> > Environment
> > The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research
> > Aug 2007
> >
> > "Therefore,increases in total body water resulting
> > from Cr
> > supplementation may prove to be beneficial for
> > maintaining hydration
> > status and core tempterature in athletes training or
> > competing in the
> > heat."
> >
> > "BODY WEIGHT INCREASES HAVE BEEN DETERMINED TO BE
> > RELATED TO INCREASES
> > IN TOTAL BODY WATER, MORE SPECIFICALLY,
> > INTRAMUSCULAR WATER." (The
> > authors cite six studies to support this statement.)
> > - p 655
> > **********
> > So you asked - does it makes sense that greater
> > intramuscular water would
> > cause
> > cramps? Well given the discussion above I will ask
> > a question which on
> > reflection was badly asked in my previous post. Is
> > not the increased
> > intramuscular water resulting in a situation of
> > hyponatremia localised in
> > the muscle causing cramps. Is the author of the
> > creatine paper not making a
> > fundamentally incorrect assumption that increased
> > hydration is better than
> > either controlled balanced hydration or minor losses
> > in water as this causes
> > an increase in mineral concentration which may be
> > beneficial. Is the
> > creatine possibly causing the cramps through
> > increased hydration?
> >
> > Best regards
> > Nick Tatalias
> > Johanesburg
> > South Africa
>
>
>
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